April 25, 2003

"Terrol Johnson and Tristan Reader of Tohono O'odham Community Action"

An interview with Terrol Johnson and Tristan Reader, Co-Directors of Tohono O'odham Community Action, and 2002 Leadership for a Changing World awardees. Questions and answers will appear below starting at 1 pm EST on Friday, April 25. You may ask a question in advance by clicking on the "Submit a Question" button. Due to time constraints, not all questions will be answered. You may need to refresh your screen during the interview to read the most recent responses. Read background

Leadership for a Changing World
Welcome to Leadership Talks with Terrol Johnson and Tristan Reader, Co-Directors of Tohono O'odham Community Action. Thank you for joining us.

What brought you both to social justice work?

Terrol Johnson
My elders expected me to take responsibility for creating a healthier and stronger world. Growing up on the Tohono O’odham Nation, I was always told by my grandfather, a makai (traditional healer), to always help my family and community in the best ways you could; working to help each other and the community is a key part of the O’odham Himdag – the Desert People’s Way.

Tristan: I grew up in a family enmeshed in the environmental and social justice movements; organizing for justice was an integral part of my upbringing. These roots have grounded me and guided me on our path. It has led us to friends, colleagues, allies and co-workers who share our commitment to the O’odham Himdag and the creation of a vital and sustainable Tohono O’odham community.

Spokane, WA
What was the biggest fear you encountered in establishing this project? From what contingent did this fear arise most often or intensely?

Terrol Johnson
The biggest fear I had was really nothing. This was new to me. I had nothing to lose. I was thinking if we give it a try, it works – if that doesn’t work, try the third, the fourth, or the fifth time. For me, the community that I grew up and came from and was involved, things are slow, things take time, and for me I felt like I had all the time in the world because we go at our own pace, and if things happen, they happen. I guess they call it optimistic. I came from a place that I didn’t have very much going into this, and Tristan, I really didn’t have anything to lose. We actually had on fears

Tristan Reader
I think it wasn’t a fear in the community, but there were ea loot of broken promises, a lot of people sitting back and waiting to see what would happen because a lot of programs had started. When the funding runs out or other obstacles run out, the programs just stop and leave, and so people were waiting to see if we were going to be here for the long run, and I believe we’ve proven we are.

Madison, WI
What has the response been from the community? Are they willing to change their current lifestyle?

Terrol Johnson
The response has been slow, but very powerful. Out here on the reservation, like Tristan mentioned before, people just sit back and watch, and they just see if you’re for real, if this is going to last. I think we’ve proven oursleves over and over again, to the community, we’re here for them, the response has been positive and very powerful. They know that after 7 years of being here and doing what we said we were going to do and keeping our promises, that they respect is there now and they know we’re true and we uphold our commitments, and we’re human and a group of community members trying to build a better community. We make mistakes and knowing that we ourselves didn’t make mistakes, it’s not our fault, it just didn’t happen right.

Tristan Reader
I think one of the things that often happens, people just focus on the individuals changing, which is important, but they have to be the structures that support change. For example, if someone wants to change their diet to eat healthy, more traditional food, there also has to be a food system that can support that change and supply those foods. So we have to focus on both changing individual behavior and community and economic institutions.

Terrol Dew Johnson
Let me add something. Especially like someone like myself coming from this community, change is very hard, especially they’re used to the old ways of how programs come in, promising to be the saving grace of all. Then when funding stops, the doors are closed. So I’ve been so used to that growing up here on the reservation that even now that TOCA started, changing is still hard, but I’m doing it. And health-wise, I’m diabetic, and just changing the eating habits is still hard and I think people in the community still see that. And that they see what I’m doing and other people in the program are doing, that are also from the community is an example of what they can do.

Houston, TX
I am very excited about what I have read about your program. Have your involved any mental health professionals in your cultural programs?

Tristan Reader
Not mental health professionals. A lot of the work that we do involves issues especially for the youth in growth and development. So we’re always concerned with the healthy mental, spiritual, and physical development of community members. Our approach tends to be to draw upon the traditional ways of helping young people develop, whether that’s knowing who they are culturally, finding their own skills and capacities, or participating in coming of age ceremonies or other ceremonies.

For us we always turn to the O'odham Himdag, which means The Desert People’s Way. But there are problems that a lot of the people in the community have. There’s depression, there’s alcoholism, all things which need traditional approaches, and to learn from disciplines like mental health.

Buffalo, NY
I see from your profile that your people struggle for a sense of identity. How do you approach leading people who are so torn? How do you know when to hold to tradition and when to let go for the sake of keeping up the fight?

Terrol Johnson
We’re always keeping up the fight. We never stray from that. Just dealing with cultural issues or personal identity are different approaches, like keeping that same background. Myself, growing up on the reservation, having the outside influence, influence can entice you a lot. Wanting to be part of it, but knowing that the area that you come from and the culture that you come from, it’s hard, especially when you’re young and trying to balance the two. I think this is where our programs come in and bridge the two. You can still be part of the culture and the community, but also walking that line of other outside influences.

And for a Native American, it’s hard trying to find that line and just keeping right in the center, but we still go on and we still have our culture, especially the stuff that we learned from the outside, those are tools for us to keep our culture alive and strong and just bring it back to the community. Growing up you hear from the elders, go and get your education, and come back and help us, help the community, help the people.

Tristan Reader
One thing that I would add is there’s an old story that comes from a book from the ‘30s that an anthropologist collected. In that story, an O’odham hero is returning home. He comes to a ceremonial round house and sees a lot of the old ceremonial items and items of daily life. He says, “I’m not saying it’s wrong to take on the white man’s ways, but before you do, come here, look at the O’odham ways again and decide.” For our program, that’s what we try to do, like Terrol said, look at what’s useful from the outside to help keep the O’odham culture strong.

Tishamingo, OK
Tristan mentioned people's fear and that earlier programs would just up and leave when the funds ran out. How do you make sure that TOCA will survive?

Tristan Reader
I think it really comes from the commitment of our staff and our participants. A few years ago, a couple of years ago, I guess, there was a very difficult time, and we had no funding. Yet our staff and our volunteers continued our work every day. As the only non-O'odham, I had to understand, or I came to understand that this isn’t about the work of an organization, it’s about the work of a community, and that no one was going anywhere. The work would continue whether or not the funding was there. It had to continue. So we just kept going.


Terrol Dew Johnson
I think that time Tristan talked about was a really hard time, especially for the Native staff, and I think seeing that Tristan non-Native, going through the same hardship as we were by not getting paid, showed us, the Native staff but also the community, that this white guy was committed to what he said he was going to do. I think that was just one of the ways TOCA and the staff, or Tristan, has proven that just because money wasn’t available, we weren’t going to shut down.

It’s hard, especially for a nonprofit organization on the reservation here, because a lot of people on the reservation don’t even know what a nonprofit is. Still, there are people out there who think that our program is part of the tribal programs, which is not so. And that was one of the decisions myself and Tristan made in the very beginning to be not part of. It’s hard because there are some ups and down, especially financially, and we let people that come in to TOCA know that we always don’t have money to do certain things, but that we’ll try to do our best to provide because it might just be as simple as going out and doing physical things instead of providing financial support. I think that shows to the community that we’re not just about money.

Scottsdale, AZ
How are you working to grow the next generation of leaders in your area? Is it difficult to engage youth on the reservation?

Tristan Reader
Our work with young people is not only about developing their identity as youth, or even as native people, but as part of a community that depends on each other. That does not always happen dramatically, but it happens. One young person fails in school, then discovers his skills as a basket weaver and ends up attending a prestigious art school. A troubled young woman seeks guidance from her grandmother, a ceremony is organized, and she finds a new way to begin. And maybe a young man of great potential goes to prison, only to return to his community to make a difference for other young people. The development of the young people with whom we work happens slowly, in a circle or a jagged line, in unrecognizable moments that lead to where they are meant to be. Year after year they go back to the ocean to seek their gifts, and TOCA stays with them.

Lame Deer, MT
I am a member of the Crow Tribe but live on the Northern Cheyenne reservation and work at Montana State University-Bozeman. We have looked at the issue of diabetes among our people and we are particularly concerned about the increase in diabetes among our youth and young adults. What strategies or action plans do you have to change the eating patterns (fast food, junk food) that young people seem to prefer over traditional Native foods?

Terrol Johnson
There wasn’t really a strategy. I think that’s one thing, with the program that we have, is we don’t come in and say you have to change this, you have to do this. We as a program just make information available and tell them how important these foods are to their health and to the community. We don’t try to force anything on anybody. The information is there for them to either take in and learn, or just push it aside. I think that’s why our program is doing pretty good, because we don’t enforce it.

Tristan Reader
I think another thing for the young people is for them to experience, in a hands on way, the traditional foods that can keep them healthy. Just a couple of days ago, we were out collecting cholla buds with GED students. At first, it seems like none of them liked eating the cholla buds, but as they collected them and cleaned them, and interacted with elders, they seemed to get excited about it. I was very encouraged when one of the young women asked if she could take more of the cholla buds home to her grandmother so they could cook them and eat them together. It’s when young people make these connections between culture, health, and across generations that they seem to begin to make changes in how they eat and in their own health.

Burlington, VT
Tristan, how did you first connect with the Tohono O'Oodham community? How did the community receive you, and were you immediately accepted as a 'leader'? What have been the challenges or difficulties in being a non-native and doing this work?

Tristan Reader
The way I first connected with the community was when my wife took a job here and we moved onto the reservation. One of the first questions people asked me was “How long are you going to be here?”, “How long are you going to stay?”, and I honestly didn’t know. The process I think of having my role accepted has taken a long time. There have been a lot of people who come and go having shown a long-term commitment of being a part of the community. But I think over the years, I’ve shown that I’m not going anywhere, and I’ve been very honored by being accepted by many people. I don’t try to be O'odham. Instead, I try to I guess be that weird white guy who is part of the community.

I do feel like I’m part of this community, but not that I’m a tribal member. I feel like I’m committed to being here, and that this is my community. I’ve been honored to be accepted by many people.

Denville, NJ
How do you work together as a team? How are your roles divided?

Terrol Johnson
We try to practice a “leadership” style that is consistent with the O’odham Himdag – the Desert People’s Way. We seek to walk with the community as it seeks out its own gifts and strengths. Rather than “leading” in a conventional way, we have spent countless hours listening to our community – everyone from children to elders – in an attempt to draw upon community assets to develop effective, culturally-based responses to communal problems.

TRISTAN: This does not mean that we are passive in the process; rather, we work to synthesize what we hear from the community into clear strategies, which stimulate cultural revitalization and sustainable community development. We strive to use our unique skills and perspectives as tools and resources for the hundreds of community members who participate in our various efforts. Our goal – both as individuals and as a leadership team – is to create more than a vital and sustainable organization; our goal is the creation of a vital and sustainable Tohono O’odham community.

TERROL: In our leadership team, I bring my knowledge of the challenges, needs, assets and desires of the Tohono O’odham community, having been born and raised on the Reservation. As an artist, I bring a creative spirit to the process of designing positive, effective programs.

TRISTAN: Having worked in various communities over the years, I try to bring a broad perspective on issues of social justice combined with organizational development skills. We share responsibilities for planning and envisioning a future for TOCA, as well as responsibilities such as staff supervision, community outreach and program development. Although team leadership often takes more time at its inception, ultimately, it provides a stronger more vibrant form of leadership that strengthens the individuals, the organization and the community.

Fort Myers, FL
What are the pros and cons of having Co-Directors versus one Director for your organization?

Terrol Johnson
I think one of the pros is you’re not dealing with issues alone, you always have someone to bounce ideas and questions and thoughts and worries off of, and just for myself personally, just going into this line of work, it’s nice to have someone walk with you, be with you. I’ve never dreamt of doing this kind of work, and now doing this work is just amazing, and it’s nice to share it with someone who feels the same way, and sees the same vision.

One of the cons though, for this particular organization, is dealing with community members and the outside world, them seeing the two of us, a white guy and an Indian guy, and having them automatically think Tristan is the boss, the head honcho, because he is white. It really upsets me. It really disturbs me. Those are one of the cons, and we’re still going through that today.

Tristan Reader
One thing that we always try and do in our work is recognize that everyone brings strengths and weaknesses. By being co-directors, we’re able to complement each other’s skills and perspectives. There are things I’m very good at, and things I’m weak at. And when there’s a challenge that I might be weak at, Terrol is there with his strength, and vice versa.

Terrol Dew Johnson
I have something to add as well. One of the pros is that Tristan being from a different world and us from another, it’s nice to get the perspective from someone outside community, because he makes us better understand the outside world.

Berkeley, CA
I have a son who is half Tohono O'odham, but lives in California with me. What resources are available for him to connect with his culture from a distance or through periodic visits to the land?

Terrol Johnson
When he comes and visits, have him come and stop by and see us! If he has family that he stays with, have him visit more with the elders and his peers, but also we have a website up, and I think also the Tohono O’odham Nation has a site. Our website is http://www.tocaonline.org.

Tristan Reader
One thing I think is important and one thing I’ve seen happen is that young people who’ve grown up off the reservation often find it useful to come to the reservation and spend time getting to know who they are and where they come from. I think it helps them succeed, whether it’s here in the O’odham community or just life in general, to have a strong sense of their heritage, and sometimes that can only happen by being here with their own people.

Terrol Dew Johnson
Also to let her son know that when he’s ready to learn more of his culture, that we’re always here, and when he’s ready, give us a call. The reason why I say that is because a lot of times I see other tribal members who grow up off the reservation and want to know where they’re from and their history and their culture. They usually come with the idea, but also come up their own issues, and sometimes they’re not the right issues. Usually I see that and I think when you’re ready to deal with your issues and you’re ready to learn about your culture, we’re still here, and we’ll always be here.

Leadership for a Changing World
We have time for one more question.

How do you personally sustain yourselves and your staff while working on difficult social problems?

Tristan Reader
For me there are two things, and one is something that I naturally do, and one is something that I learned here. For me it’s important to do physical work with my hands, to get out of my head, and sometimes that’s woodworking at home, and sometimes it’s harvesting saguaro fruit, but not to think so much, and to just do.

The other thing I’ve learned from people here is that this isn’t just work, it’s our life, so that sometimes you can’t separate out the work from anything else. We try and sustain the community at the same time we try and sustain ourselves.

Terrol Dew Johnson
For me it’s just going back to my family and spending time with them, and spending time in the community always recharges my batteries. And just hanging out with friends and being around others who want a better community, and for me that’s how I just keep myself grounded and recharge myself. But also I’m an artist, and doing my art is a great outlet for me because everything around me affects me and my art, and so doing that is a good release for me.

Leadership for a Changing World
Thank you for joining us today for Leadership Talks with Terrol Johnson and Tristan Reader of Tohono O'odham Community Action.

For more information:

Tohono O’odham Community Action
P.O. Box 1790
Sells, AZ 85634
Phone: 520-383-4966
Fax: 520-383-5286
Email: tdewj@tocaonline.org; treader@tocaonline.org
Web: www.tocaonline.org

Please join us for future Leadership Talks.

Terrol Johnson

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